Rogue Wishlists for Dragonflight Talent Tree - Assassination, Outlaw, and Subtlety
06/07/2022 alle 06:24
While we await more Dragonflight Talent Tree reveals, our Rogue writers have provided wishlists on what they want to see on their revamped Talent Trees. Check out what new ideas or returning favorites they'd like to see!
Rogue Wishlists for the Dragonflight Talent Trees
Our Rogue Writers, Whispyr (Assassination), JustGuy (Outlaw), and Fuu1 (Subtlety) provide some insight on what they'd like to see in the next iteration of Talent Trees for Dragonflight.
Assassination Rogue Talent Tree Wishlist
To fully talk about what should be added, we need to talk about what the current issues are with the talents to get a picture of the downfalls and possible changes that could address them.
Dead and Underplayed Talents
The first things that need to change are the dead talents that have sat in the tree unused. None of the talents marked above in red have received any playtime in raids or dungeons, for the entirety of the Shadowlands. The talents I've marked in yellow require some looking at. I'll go over what I think the talents need going forward if they were to stay.
is the very first talent that has never been used, and that is simply a numbers game. I think the increased effect of poisons can be interesting for
but since other classes also possess similar debuffs, that utility niche is not something that is ever needed. Maybe increasing the utility effect would help but it mostly just needs competitive damage output.
Scatto di Veleno
is simply not strong enough, nor interesting enough. The effect could read "reduces the energy cost of
by X" and be identical. A numerical buff could make it viable, but it could use an additional effect or a rework honestly. Making
deal damage would be a simple effect that would bring something interesting while still keeping the passive nature of the talent for example.
might be the most confusing talent. Even with
Ventaglio di Lame
damage recently buffed by a staggering
, a glance at some logs from mythic+ shows it doing between 8-11% overall damage. Since
Ventaglio di Lame
is also our only aoe generator, the entire design of
stacking up to do one big empowered
Ventaglio di Lame
stands in direct opposition to the spec's design and gameplay. I would suggest scrapping the effect entirely and replacing it with the Azerite trait
instead if a desire for a
Ventaglio di Lame
talent is wanted.
Predatore della Notte
has had a bit of an identity crisis ever since the mastery rework after legion. After the rework, mastery now affects bleeds as well, causing the old gameplay from
Predatore della Notte
to empower a big
during your cooldowns to simply not be viable anymore. It's now used to empower a bleed, typically
, which is nearly identical to what
does, just with a different bleed. I enjoyed the gameplay and burst of an empowered
, especially for damage to adds in a boss fight. I would rework
Predatore della Notte
to empower only
and give it a strong numerical buff.
As for the Yellow Talents, these are more numerically bland, but I would like to mention them briefly:
is a great talent with an execute niche, but
is simply too weak. Alongside a buff, I'd like to see a change that leans this talent further into an execute-centric choice, causing increased damage when the target is below 30%, or adding an effect similar to
Fregio di Zoldyck
is fine, but having it at 50% feels terrible when you're at 85-90% crit with it and still miss both crits from a
. It could also use a longer duration since three seconds on Assassination doesn't allow for much.
's increased energy regen only applies to the baseline energy regeneration from your character, which is a minimal increase. I would like to see it increase
energy regen instead to make it a compelling choice for faster gameplay.
Bomba di Veleno
is an AoE effect, but its random nature, small ground effect, and lackluster damage cause it to often be overshadowed by
. It could be reworked to a 30-second cooldown which causes you to throw a poison vial on the next enemy you envenom. The fumes deal nature damage every second for a given time to enemies in the area. Additionally, it deals increased damage for each bleed affecting the enemy. This would be more rotational, but also gives something to think about and set up for during mythic+ or aoe raid fights. It also maintains the damage over time theme. Another idea for a
Bomba di Veleno
rework could be simply making it an active ability with two charges, buffing the damage, and allowing the player to cast it when they would like.
Rogue Tree (available to all specs)
For the general Rogue talents, there are some things from old expansions I would like to see back, especially utility/defensively. There is however a very big elephant in the room that we need to discuss later in this section.
Aculeo Osseo Seghettato
was very well received in shadowlands, and is usually considered the most fun and dynamic covenant option, even when it hasn't been the strongest option. With the addition of
Aculeo della Morte
, it helped out our lacking aoe immensely, which is something I will cover in more depth later. In general, it's a fun ability, provides an option from range, allows for good aoe and cleave, and has a strong thematic. A home run addition.
is something I want to see expanded to all specs, as it helps foster the planning and scheming playstyle of the class as a whole.
casts and was fun to play around with, especially in higher mythic+ keys for damage that could not be reduced otherwise.
Scarica di Velocità
is another crowd favorite and great utility spell. It was removed because it was simply way too powerful, but it could make a return as a Rank 2 of
for example, which lowers the cooldown, or removes the cooldown outside of instances, for the more casual collecting crowd running in the open world between mobs without having to mount. It's just an iconic rogue ability that was super fun to play with.
Addressing the elephant in the room, raid utility. Externals like
Infusione di Potere
and other raid buffs are here to stay. I think every class should get some form of raid utility, and I've considered multiple options here:
Swiftblades Cunning is the removed raid buff for rogues, which increased critical strike chance.
Strengthening the non-lethal poisons (
) with effects that work on raid bosses, or introducing a new non-lethal poison that brings a unique effect. It could for example be a stacking debuff, reducing the damage of the next auto-attack from the target. Given the incredibly high auto-attack damage tanks have been sustaining on some of the later bosses in 9.2, it would be an invaluable defensive resource on the slower, more hard-hitting bosses.
could make a return in some form. It would be difficult to make this work however since
are very similar effects.
As a foreword, it should be noted that Assassination has not received any major changes to the spec in a very
long time. The rework in legion changed a couple of talents but did not provide much change, and the spec as a whole plays almost identically since Cataclysm almost 12 years ago. While there are some old borrowed power effects that I would like to see back, the most pressing thing I wish for is
. I want the spec design to move forward, instead of stagnating as it has. This talent rework has so much room for interesting choices and some real gameplay-altering effects.
. This crowd favorite Azerite power was well received for the incredible damage it gave in mythic+, but I think the best part is that it made
give extra combo points. The extra combo points helped get Assassination out of the sluggish openers every pull and provided nice pacing. There's also some placebo that more combo points just
more powerful. If you press a
and see your combo points flying up, there's that perceived weight to the button that a lot of people enjoy. I would suggest baking the effect into
since they are very similar already.
is a more recent addition, being a Torghast power, but falls under the category of "something new that also fleshes out our lacking aoe". In conjunction with
, it could make for a very interesting cooldown in dungeons and could be useful on a raid boss as well. Imagine a boss that spawns a sizeable group of adds (such as Denathrius from Nathria, Jailer from Sanctum, etc). You can
these adds, then
, doing some "burst" aoe, and getting a big agility buff to then put back into the boss. That niche has a clear use case and can be very tricky to properly execute depending on the fight timings.
Odore del Sangue
rewards the multi-dotting aspect in mythic+, again this just fleshes out our aoe and gives some options for choosing what to do with the bonus, focusing on single target or stronger aoe using the benefits of a buff. This could be changed to a different stat to make it more interesting, such as critical strike chance, which would increase our combo point generation, or making all bleeds deal x% more damage.
Fregio di Zoldyck
and similar execute themes have been strong for Assassination in the past, and I think they should be retained and improved on.
Fregio di Zoldyck
is a clear option, but I think an effect that causes your bleeds to tick faster depending on boss health, bleed ticks on poisoned enemies dealing damage when under a certain health%, reducing the cost of
, increasing poison proc chance, or any other similar effects could be very interesting and give an execute niche to Assassination if tuned properly.
Impeto di Tossine
is a very simple passive, but provides good flavor and leans into the poison aspect of the spec. It's thematically strong and could be expanded on to support the
sniping gameplay that exists where you can get a quick, large burst of energy from a dying target. An effect could read "When a target affected by both a bleed and a poison dies, your next
deals increased damage depending on the remaining duration" as an example.
these days is the core of Assassinations energy regen, but it used to also deal damage when a bleed ticked on a poisoned target. The interplay between bleeds and poisons is so cool to me, and I love when it's built on. There could be a stacking buff to damage depending on the number of bleeds on the poisoned target for example. Another idea is if a target is affected by
, and a lethal poison, you can add an effect such as
dealing increased damage, or the bleed ticks exploding for extra damage.
Blood Burst is a cooldown that when activated, causes all bleed ticks to pulse out damage in an AoE for a given time. How this is implemented can vary. If it should take a more rotational place, it could be as low as a 10-second cooldown, making the next one/two ticks pulse, or it could be a 30-second cooldown that causes them to pulse for 5 seconds, or even a 2-3 minute cooldown that causes them to pulse for the entire duration! That all depends on the tuning and intent of the ability. Alternatively, it could be more like the above
, causing the bleeds to instantly do all their remaining damage in a small aoe. This would provide some thoughts about when to pop your bleeds for the most damage, getting up all your bleeds, and waiting for the mobs to group up. The gameplay implications for this are pretty heavy.
Wound Attack is an empowered envenom that would cause an effect similar to the old Warlords of Draenor Multistrike from Subtlety, Sinister Calling. Using Wound Attack would cause all bleed effects on the target to advance by 2 seconds, triggering an instant tick. This could also work on all targets in either a cone in front of you or all targets in a certain radius, making for an interesting decision in maintaining more bleeds or advancing them for more damage with Wound Attack. This would replace the poison application portion of
and essentially turn it from a poison/nature ability to a bleed/physical ability, switching the feel entirely for a fresh take on the iconic ability.
I think the reworking of talent trees can allow for some more iterative changes to a spec and can breathe some fresh life into specs. I hope that blizzard takes the opportunity and creates some new, exciting changes to specs, and doesn't waste the moment simply adding back all the effects we've played with for years now. The point system can create some real decision making but it has to be realized properly and well thought out. I'm excited to see what the future brings to Rogues and Assassination as a whole going forward to Dragonflight!
I would also like to take a quick moment to thank the Rogues of the Ravenholdt discord, who I've talked to about talent reworks and old effects they would like to see. Some of the effects talked about in the article are ideas that some of the brightest and most creative Rogues I know have talked to me about, and I'm grateful for all the discussion and excitement from the community going into the future.
Season 3 Assassination Rogue Guide
Outlaw Rogue Talent Tree Wishlist
With the announcement of more talent trees being released as the alpha release date surely coming out soon, I feel now is a great opportunity to discuss some of the talents that could return, and some of the current ones that really need some attention.
A "dead talent" is a term coined by the community as talents that effectively have no use and end up having an almost 0% pick rate when looking at warcraftlogs. Talents like these are the biggest points of failure when it comes to the current talent system. Through the entire duration of both Shadowlands, and Battle for Azeroth, talents like
have basically never been used because the talent is just incredibly undertuned. This leads us into picking a much more boring talent
which effectively just reads, "gain 10% haste while in combat" which is about as boring as you can make a talent. While talents like these are a result of raw tuning, talents like
are just terrible talents. Back in the day, when Outlaw Rogue was Combat Rogue, there was a burst window that you optimized for where
ended up doing huge damage. Since that passive has been removed there is no burst window to even optimize for, which leaves this talent doing very average damage, meanwhile taking away control from your character for 2 entire seconds while also teleporting you all over the target in melee range leaving you very susceptible to getting hit by frontals and ground effects.
Of the list of what I view as dead talents, here are some ideas that can be applied to make them not only more interesting to chose and play with, but also be much more viable numerically.
Stomaco di Ferro
: If you were to read this talent at a glance, it seems insane. Increasing the healing from your
by 30% seems insane? 20% + 30% = 50% of my health over 4 seconds with vial! Wow that's powerful! Too bad it doesn't work like that. It's taking the 20% value, and adding 30% of that value to vial, so your vial is healing for a grand total of
26% of your health.
So just baseline, this should be adding 30% and making vial heal 50% of your life over 4 seconds. While this sounds insane on paper, you have to sacrifice some huge defensive talents such as
Inganno alla Morte
to gain it. Sub Rogue and Sin Rogue have very strong self sustain talents in their row via
respectfully so I would like to see an equally strong self sustain option given to Outlaw for solo content.
: This talent is a callback to an artifact trait back from Legion which helped with reducing variance of the spec which was great. The issue is now it's a talent that has to fight against other talents and it just struggles to compete. While Outlaw has access to
to help this proc more often, realistically speaking the talent should just read "Your
always grants at least two matches." This will help with overall variance of the spec a lot, and also make the talent much more interesting and powerful.
: Similar to the above talent, this talent is also a callback to Legion just being the artifact ability itself. Even during Legion, this ability really wasn't anything special so now with even less synergies designed around the spec the talent is even less special. This talent is super weak without anything to boost it up like
so it'd need a lot of changes to make it viable moving into Dragonflight. First and foremost, this ability should 100% be on
, every other offensive cooldown is on
, it almost doesn't make sense for this one to be excluded. Second, this talent should bring back other Legion passives during it's effect, one of my favourites being
which just causes
to make an explosion of cleave damage which also heals you. Give it a cool visual and we have a powerful cooldown talent for cleave and I'm in love.
: The biggest crime this talent commits is that it's boring. This talent currently is actually quite strong for cleave content but it's about as boring as you can design a talent. Back during Battle For Azeroth when this talent was originally designed we had much lower overall
Vortice di Lame
uptime at around 50%, meanwhile now we have upwards of 95% so the uptime increase is mostly irrelevant. We also had access to one of the strongest Azerite Traits in the game,
which in cleave slowly ramped up your chance to hit twice with
which made the extra 3 seconds incredibly valuable. This was an incredibly powerful Azerite Trait because it accelerated everything the spec wanted to do very quickly. Lots of combo points, means lots of finishers, which means lots of CDR via
. It was a blast to play with and attaching this Azerite Trait back into the game with this talent probably at lower values for balance sake, but just the playstyle this Azerite Trait created is something fans of the spec want to see return.
: This talent is just a relic of an old time. Back when Combat Rogue was the spec it made a lot of sense, but ever since the transition, Outlaw has been stuck with this talent that makes no sense in the current context of the spec. Another problem is that you lose control of your character for 2 seconds which means it'll sometimes just kill you on use which isn't great especially when it's damage isn't great either. One dream idea I've always had for this spell is that instead, you summon a "Dread Ghost" which then will perform
for you instead. This idea accomplishes a few things. One, it removes the character lock which not only stops you from randomly dying it would also allow you to cast spells during the time the ghost is casting
. Two, it'd bring more of the pirate fantasy to the spec as most of it has been lost over the years which I really want to see make a return. Three, it keeps the iconic spell in the game in a much more modern way.
New Talents, Old Ideas
Outlaw has had a lot of very different designs over the years, and there are some real standout ideas that should make a return via the new talent trees.
Conta delle Probabilità
Item - Rogue T21 Outlaw 4P Bonus
: This conduit/tier set bonus are overall slam dunks design wise. It helps people feel like they aren't getting screwed by bad luck from bad outcomes via
and it's been consistently super strong. The reliance on using
is an annoyance and should be scrapped as this ability in my opinion should be relegated to utility with abilities like
Conta delle Probabilità
punishes you so hard for using it you basically never cast it on this spec.
: I always loved this covenant ability for Outlaw Rogue. It was a super cheap and efficient combo point generator which are always great for the spec, in addition to that it also made your finishers much stronger and require less combo points to do that damage. Overall it's basically everything you wanted in a covenant ability for the spec. It's not very flashy but it gets the job done.
Aculeo Osseo Seghettato
: Another super enjoyable covenant ability to play with. Similar to
, it's a low cooldown, efficient combo point generator but due the fact you can hold 3 charges at once it leads to interesting rotational moments on when it was best to use it on pure single target. On trash packs it ends up playing like
Marchio della Morte
where you are throwing all of these spikes out, generating loads of combo points, getting resets constantly, it feels great and I hope it makes a return.
: I mentioned this above in an idea to buff
to be a much more interesting talent, but even this Azerite Trait as a standalone this is something a lot of fans of the spec want to make a return. This Azerite Trait just is perfect for the spec, it helps with lowering variance of the spec, and it creates this perfect feedback loop of everything the spec wants. Lots of combo points, lots of finishers, lots of cooldowns, lots of spam. What's not to love?
: Similar to the above talent, talents that are just huge bulk increases to
second hit chances are just a blast to play with. Outlaw Rogue is a spec that feels terrible when it isn't getting procs. Whether its
procs, or even
procs, the spec tends to struggle and feel pretty terrible when it isn't getting these.
New Talents, New Ideas
Outlaw Rogue also has a few issues, or old design ideas that could use some work in a more modern version of WoW.
has always been an awkward spell for the spec in a raid encounter. Due to the specs design with
you end up being very punished for ever holding a cooldown for an extended period of time, whether it be an intermission phase, whether it be you need to save cooldowns for adds, holding cooldowns on this spec is more punishing than most. A super minor change that would help this in a big way is give
2 charges. While
is an incredibly low impact cooldown, being able to have literally anything for when a raid leader calls for cooldown usage would be nice without massively neutering your overall damage and flow of the spec.
In Mezzo agli Occhi
should be a buff to your player. Ever since I saw this spell get changed from being a
Colpo ai Reni
replacement back during Battle For Azeroth to a normal finisher I've hated it ever since. One of my least favourite mechanic for any spec in WoW is being "target locked" in an aoe situation. Having to swap targets in dungeons to more effectively deal with
but losing out on that sweet crit debuff just feels bad even if it is correct to do in that situation.
is the single ability that made me fall in love with this game to the degree that I'm invested now, but some of these buffs need to be looked over again. Specifically
is the worst buff that
can give and it's not close. Lets say a boss is going to die in 2 minutes, and you already have 2 minutes of
, this buff is literally giving you nothing other than just flat leech because ending a fight with 6 minutes of
doesn't do anything.
should be reverted back to what it was in Battle For Azeroth and should just be an attack speed increase.
is also just garbage, Outlaw Rogue is always looking for a way to get more energy passively. It's just that
does a terrible job at doing what it's designed to do. One of the best minor essences during Battle For Azeroth was
which just made spells cheaper and also gave you flat vers any time you get a discount, something like this would be great instead.
Vortice di Lame
should be given the softcap treatment that every other spec was given. Listen, I get it, we don't want another Battle For Azeroth situation where you bring 3 Outlaw Rogues to every dungeon, but Outlaw shouldn't be paying this crime for it's past sins. Whether or not the spec is powerful or not within its restrictions for 5 targets is besides the point. The entire reason the uncapping was done in the first place was because "It feels terrible to pull huge targets and feel useless" which is still happening for this spec in every dungeon it goes into.
Obviously I am just one person giving their opinion on the spec, so there are loads of other ideas and opinions on the spec that differ from mine. Overall I've been very pleased with how Outlaw Rogue has been designed over the years and I hope Dragonflight continues to the pattern of making the spec enjoyable to play, viable in Raid and M+, and providing a new and unique spin on a few core ideas of the spec. Hopefully moving forward into Dragonflight Blizzard will be open to community feedback on talent trees and overall design goals for the spec as during the Shadowlands Alpha, and Beta phases Rogues were the VERY LAST spec to receive it's new talents, legendaries, and covenant abilities which doesn't feel great especially when many of them on launch felt not great. This spec has been my favourite to play for years and I hope Blizzard can keep it fresh while also bringing back some of it's best design ideas.
Thanks for reading!
Season 3 Outlaw Rogue Guide
Subtlety Rogue Talent Tree Wishlist
Dragonflight alpha is just on the horizon so i took this opportunity to open a discussion with members of the community and compiled a list with suggestions and opinions.
We did a lot of brainstorming and came up with the following abilities we would like to see in the rogue talent tree once again.
Talents - the status quo:
The current talent tree has a low amount of diversity , the only tier that offers a choice is the level 50 talent tier that gives you the option to choose between
Maestro delle Ombre
, if you want to be more single target oriented, and
Tornado di Shuriken
for funnel or AoE. To showcase this issue in a graphical way, i went and colored all talent options that have a very low representation (usually ~1% or lower) in red.
Some of the options that are not played are simply results of having a stronger alternative but others end up in this position due to design decisions.
for example does suffer from changes to
. The change to the duration from five to eight seconds as well as to move the options to have 2 charges into
removed too much flexibility to make the talent competitive.
The same design choice also makes energy talents mandatory. The energy economy is, even with pooling, too low to be able to utilize all eight globals of
and is only solvable by using
or alternative two or more energy talents. Ideally there is an incentive to revisit this decision with the new talent tree system as it feels like taking away options from the player in the current iteration.
Old is the new new:
Subtlety had a lot of exciting talents over the years, this is a list of the most requested talents to return:
: A hard hitting signature ability is one thing the spec could benefit from and this spell is the perfect fit. The first part of the attack is an initial AoE effect and the second part is a empowered
part is delayed what allowed the use of
to empower it without losing globals during its runtime. The two part attack also allowed the player to control the damage spread by aligning cooldowns either with the initial hit or with the second part. It also integrates well into into the finisher economy because it benefits from the same traits
does. The only change the spell would need is the removal of the position lock during its execution.
Combo di Shuriken
: Every single player that played in early BfA knows about this spell. It was famously used from subtlety rogues when fighting
and was straight out removed after that. While this reaction seemed logical at the time, returning this spell would allow the specialization to return with a unique niche. While subtlety has a well-earned reputation for funnel damage, newer mechanics on other classes currently offer more effective funnel options and it would be great to re-emphasize this as a strength of the specialization.
: The one thing Rogue misses is some form of raid utility. Smoke bomb seems to be the obvious choice to fit in this category without creating a lot more headaches. The line of sight mechanic attached to it would need to be removed likely to not cause issues with encounters.
Vendetta della Notte
: Both spells empower your next finishing move, this is a great way to add an additional layer of complexity and give options to strategically align effects with other cooldowns.
: The buffer the talent adds can be used for two consecutive finishing moves and give more control over when you spend your combo points, witch opens up new gameplay optimizations.
: The spell fits very well with the shadow fantasy of the specialization and would give it a new potentially strong cooldown to plan around.
: The amount of casualties skyrocketed after the removal of this ability and it would be a crime to not bring it back. It is a decision between life and death (to fall damage).
Reworked or new options:
Several talents or abilities offer a strong framework but have some issues that make them not desirable.
This section will cover these as well as new ideas that could be interesting.
Pugnalata alle Spalle
: The biggest drawback of this ability is the positional requirement. Encounters in the way they are designed now often don't allow you to stand behind the boss or have hit boxes that don't showcase this positional requirement well. The problem is emphasized if there are additional systems like
that lead to noticeable lower output if you are positioned incorrectly. Simply removing this requirement or replacing the spell with
would be a welcome change.
: The introduction of
made this talent redundant. The tuning is too low to act as a burst AoE spell and It does not integrate well into the spec. The easiest solution would be to heavily buff it to make up for that. Given the conflict with
it might be an option to completely rework it into something that helps with weaknesses of the spec, like allowing your finishers to hit multiple targets for a short amount of time. The animation of the spell is also still fairly disappointing and in need of an update.
offer a unique option for the spec to select between empowering
or allowing you to get additional uses. The main problem currently is that the dynamic of having two charges of
outshines the other options significantly. The simplest approach to solve this would be to put two charges baseline.
A sligly more extreme approach would be to move the charges from
and buff the cdr component. However, this would make
a very risky option but would allow a better trade off compared to now.
: The spell is too weak for a 3 minute cooldown. Changing the duration could allow more dynamic use, however it being extended to additional damage sources such as the
would allow it to generate a more noticeable impact.
: This talent would benefit from returning to an older iteration to work on all damage abilities instead of only single target builders. This would keep it relevant in multi target situations.
A shadow themed poison
with the effect of
Confine della Notte
would integrate well into the fantasy of the specialization while offering something more interesting than
and introduces a small execute mechanic.
: The duration of poisons does most of the time not lead to interesting gameplay. It would be a nice quality of life change to have poisons applied to your weapon permanently.
The new expansion and talent tree rework gives Blizzard the opportunity to change things up more significantly and introduce new and fun talents as well as revisit old choices. We came up with a list of interesting options and there are a lot of other good ideas out there. My hopes are that we see a change in direction with more impactful cooldowns similar to iterations before Shadowland, maybe some ideas from the list could be picked up for that.
Season 3 Subtlety Rogue Guide
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